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Author Topic: How many basic moves is too many?  (Read 794 times)

klintron

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How many basic moves is too many?
« on: September 23, 2016, 04:13:03 AM »
OK, I know there's no pat answer to this question, but I'm wondering if I have too many basic moves. Most PbTA games have 8 basic moves, plus a few special moves and then the playbook moves. The hack I'm working on has 13 basic moves and three special moves. I also have group playbooks, of which I've only developed one so far. It has four moves. So that's 20 moves before we even start talking about individual playbooks.

My first test was a little inconclusive. They didn't seem overwhelmed, but they did have to refer to the basic move sheet a lot. On the other hand, group had never played a AW or any PbTA game and didn't spend much time looking at the moves before the game, so they were learning everything as they went along. So I'm curious if anyone has a sense of how much is too much. Have any of you designed a hack with this many common moves? How has it worked out?

Charles Perez

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Re: How many basic moves is too many?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2016, 10:33:10 PM »
For Supernals (Roger Zelazny's Amber et al), I have 13 basic feats to AW1stEd's 7 basic moves, a feat to take advantage of being bigger, a feat to take advantage of being more numerous, 6 variations of help-or-hinder, 2 different sex feats, and 4 other special feats. I also have feats for the MC to use, analogous to some of the basic PC feats, on behalf of MC characters who never roll dice. It seems to work fine.

None of that is counting distinctive feats for powers common and uncommon, nor for mastering places and objects.

Charles Perez

Wambly

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Re: How many basic moves is too many?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2016, 02:51:30 AM »
I have a hack under perpetual construction that features 11 basic moves, and so far three special moves. However those basic moves differ from the standard PbtA ones and my hack uses much different mechanics than normal.

What are the 13 basic moves in your hack?

Charles Perez

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Re: How many basic moves is too many?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2016, 01:25:39 AM »
In Supernals, the basic traits are Endurance, Fortune, Psyche, Strength, and Warfare. Derived from these are Power, Presence, and Stamina.

The 13 basic feats follow.

Endurance Feat:

When enduring hardship or duress, roll +Endurance. On 10+, choose 3; on 7-9, choose 2; on 6-, choose 1.
You do not become Flagging.
You need not choose from among becoming Discomfited or becoming Taxed or becoming Pressed or becoming Battered, the choice to be made being appropriate to the form and nature of the hardship or duress.
If there is a good way for you out of or through the hardship or duress, you take it.
You may ask one question from the feat 'reading a charged situation', the situation being the fact of the hardship or duress you are enduring; take +1 when acting on the answer.

Fortune Feat:

When trusting to your luck, roll +Fortune. On 10+, hold 3; on 7-9, hold 1; on 6-, prepare for the worst. When the scene changes, lose all hold. Use hold 1 for 1 to do any of the following this scene.
You gain a short break or respite in the middle of a larger struggle, contest, or crisis.
Select a single type of hold; you cancel all of that type of someone's hold.
You negate one advantage held by adversaries within the scope of the current struggle or conflict.
You take +1 forward to roll +Endurance or +Psyche or +Strength or +Warfare.
You find a good way in or out or past or through; exploiting it is up to you.
You ask any one question from 'reading a charged situation' or 'reading a person'.
You gain an object appropriate to the course of events thus far; if you are introducing this object, it has 1 advantageous feature.
You seize the initiative.

 
Presence Feats:

When being charismatic, inspiring, alluring, and/or menacing to those subject to your charisma, inspiration, allure, and/or menace, roll +Presence. On 7+, you are charismatic, inspiring, alluring, and/or menacing, as established. On 10+, hold 3; on 7-9, hold 1; on 6-, hold 0. When the scene changes, lose all hold. Use hold 1 for 1 to assert any of the following.
This NPC finds you convincing and is willing to do as you desire, if given sufficient incentive.
This NPC wants to please you and, if also willing to do as you desire, merely requires insufficient disincentive to do so.
This PC finds you convincing; either the PC does as you desire or that PC becomes Discomfited.
This PC finds you convincing; if the PC does as you desire, that PC checks experience twice.
This person is inspired by you, and someone gains +1 forward when acting in accord with this inspiration.
This person reveals something about someone; have this person yield the answer to 1 appropriate question from the feat 'reading a person' about that someone.
This person gives you a gift; gain 1 object, appropriate to the person and to the course of events thus far, and if the object has just been introduced, it has 1 advantageous feature appropriate to the course of events thus far.
This object just introduced has 1 extra advantageous feature, appropriate to the course of events thus far.

When summoning or sending or leaving an obedient object to do your bidding, roll +Presence. On 10+, hold 3; on 7-9, hold 2; on 6-, hold 0. When the scene changes, lose all hold. Use hold 1 for 1 to assert any of the following.
You use an eligible basic feat with the object as proxy, rolling your +Presence for it.
You may use eligible basic feats this scene that roll your +Fortune, that roll your +Psyche, and that roll your +Warfare, with the object as proxy.
Your obedient object opens up a way in or out or past or through something or someone.
You may use this feat again at a later time so that the object continues to do your established bidding, even if the object is away from you and from any representative of yours or is otherwise out of touch.
Psyche Feats:

When engaging in a psychic struggle, roll +Psyche. On 10+, choose 3; on 7-9, choose 2; on 6-, choose 0. Any hold gained thereby may be spent  as follows: 1 hold to end an enabling psychic link controlled by you; 3 hold to sever an enabling psychic link not controlled by you. After the struggle, lose all hold.
You do not become Discomfited, and you do not lose 1 hold.
An adversary of your choice in the struggle becomes Discomfited, and also loses 1 hold.
You are the contender who gains +1 hold.
You keep your adversary from having drawn out the struggle for an inconveniently long time, for now.
You are able to draw out the struggle for an inconveniently long time.
You learn a pertinent secret from an adversary, or else that there are no more such secrets to be learned.

When reading a person, roll +Psyche. On 10+, hold 3; on 7-9, hold 1; on 6-, hold 0. When the scene changes, lose all hold. Use hold, 1 for 1, to ask any of the following questions; any answers must be truthful.
Is your character telling the truth?
What is your character really feeling?
What does your character intend to do?
What does your character wish I would do?
How could I get your character to do what I wish?

Stamina Feats:

When exerting yourself in the face of fatigue or the prospect of fatigue, roll +Stamina. On 10+, choose 3; on 7-9, choose 2; on 6-, choose 1.
You do not become Flagging.
You need not choose between becoming Discomfited or becoming Taxed.
You do not waver.
You take +1 forward to roll +Endurance, +Psyche, +Strength, or +Warfare.

When attempting to outperform another physically, roll +Stamina. On 10+, choose 3; on 7-9, choose 2; on 6-, choose 0.
You do not become Flagging.
Someone who is trying to outperform you becomes Flagging.
You are about to outperform someone who is trying to outperform you.
You are the one who has the initiative.

 
Strength Feats:

When engaging in a physical struggle, roll +Strength. On 10+, choose 3; on 7-9, choose 2; on 6-, choose 0.
You do not become Taxed.
An adversary of your choice in the struggle becomes Taxed.
All non-supernals within your supernal reach who have no pertinent harm levels unchecked are taken out.
You are the one who has the initiative.
You take definite hold of an adversary of your choice within your reach, but not of that adversary's ability to engage in a physical struggle with you.

When seizing something by force or by forceful display, roll +Strength. On 10+, choose 3; on 7-9, choose 2; on 6-, choose 0.
You do not become Taxed.
You are the one who has the initiative.
You take definite hold of something within your reach.
You impress, frighten, or dismay others.

Warfare Feats:

When taking action in a duel or skirmish or in a conflict of war or strategy, roll +Warfare. On 10+, choose 3; on 7-9, choose 2; on 6-, choose 0.
You do not become Pressed.
An adversary of your choice in the conflict becomes Pressed.
All non-supernals within your supernal reach who have no pertinent harm levels unchecked are taken out.
If there are currently any tactical opportunities, you are the one to take advantage of the next one.
You are the one who has the initiative.
You may ask one question about an adversary from the feat 'reading a person'.

When reading a charged situation, roll +Warfare. On 10+, ask 3 questions; on 7-9, ask 1 question; on 6-, ask 1 question anyway and prepare for the worst. Any answers must be truthful. Whenever acting on the answer to such a question, take +1.
What is my best way in or out or past or through?
Which enemy is most vulnerable to me?
Which enemy is the biggest threat?
What should I be wary of?
What is my enemy's true position?
Who is in control here?

When your plan or stratagem meets adversity while you are absent or preoccupied or indisposed, roll +Warfare. On 10+, choose 3; on 7-9, choose 2; on 6-, choose 0 and prepare for the worst.
You may use feats with your +Fortune this scene using as proxy whoever or whatever is following your plan or stratagem, even if you are away and out of touch.
You may use feats with your +Presence this scene using as proxy whoever or whatever is following your plan or stratagem, even if you are away and out of touch.
You may use feats with your +Psyche this scene using as proxy whoever or whatever is following your plan or stratagem, even if you are away and out of touch.
You may use feats with your +Warfare this scene using as proxy whoever or whatever is following your plan or stratagem, even if you are away and out of touch.
The plan or stratagem does not fall apart after the scene ends.
The existence of the plan or strategem need not have been declared before now.


Charles

onrigato

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Re: How many basic moves is too many?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2017, 01:32:43 AM »
Use as many basic moves as you need for your game and the genre, but organize them so you don't overwhelm your players. Urban Shadows has 6 basic moves, 4 faction moves, and 4 debt moves (14 total). AW1E has 8 basic moves and 8 peripheral moves (16 total). Dungeon World has 7 basic moves and 13 special moves (20 total). So 20 common moves isn't unprecedented.

Are all 13 of your basic moves really basic, or are some more basic than others? Can they be grouped according to function or genre or when they usually occur in the story?