Author Topic: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.  (Read 8564 times)

rudy

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New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« on: September 09, 2013, 02:57:32 AM »
So, I'm interested in increasing the class flexibility for players for an upcoming game, and am messing around with rules for combining two classes.  I'd love any input on the following, such as factors I've forgetten to consider, balance issues, comprehensibility, and the like.  I'm grateful for any input.


EDIT:  See Version 2.0 in post 4


ROLEPLAYING LIMITATIONS & REQUIREMENTS:

The addition of a second class must be roleplayed within the fiction; you do not simply wake up a wizard.  Build up is required.  If you add "wizard" as your second class, your character should have been reading about/experimenting with arcane magics for a while first.

If you gain a new move that grants you something physical, such as a fighter's signature weapon, a ranger's animal companion, or a wizard's spellbook, then the GM is perfectly justified in requiring that you aquire that thing it in the fiction, through a subquest, spending of coin, or anything else appropriate.

Certain combinations may be infeasible.  For example, *maybe* you can be a thief/paladin, but you won't have access to the Flexible Morals, Backstab or Poisoner moves, so probably not the best combination regardless.  Up to GM, so clear it beforehand.

GAINING A SECOND CLASS

Once you have reached level 5 in your first class, you may during the "make camp" move lose 10 accumulated experience points to gain a second class.  For example, a level 5 cleric may spend 10 accumulated experience points to gain the "wizard" class as well, and becomes a level 5 cleric / level 1 wizard.  You may never have more than two classes.

When you first spend the 10 experience points to gain the second class, you do not gain any advanced moves.  Instead, you gain only one of the basic moves of your new class, gaining additional ones as you add more levels in that class (which moves are gained is detailed in the final section of this document).  You do not gain any racial moves for your new class, even if your race matches one of the options for that class.  Your HP, damage, and carrying capacity remain unchanged.  You do not gain a new stat point at this time.

LEVELING WITH TWO CLASSES:

Your two classes level separately, in the sense that if I am a Cleric 5 / Wizard 1, I can either spend 12 experience to gain a level of cleric, or 8 experience to gain a level of wizard. 

For levels 2-5 in the second class added, you *must* pick one of the level 2-5 Advanced moves for that class; you cannot pick compendium class moves.  In addition, at these levels you may gain access to more of the basic moves from that class, as detailed in the final section.

Once you have mastered the second class, which occurs at level 5 (see below), any future levels in that class may be used to pick moves from the advanced move list of that class, or from compendium classes that you have access to.

Finally, you only gain a stat point when you level whichever class is currently your highest (either class if they are tied).  So, if I am a Cleric 5 / Wizard 3, and I gain a level of wizard, my stats do not increase.  If I gain a level of cleric, then they do.

MASTERING YOUR SECOND CLASS:

Once you reach level 5 in your second class, you are considered to have mastered it.  At this time, between your two classes, you may choose the best from each of hit points, damage, and carrying capacity.  If you happen to be a race that has racial moves for both classes, you may choose one or the other of them (but not both) at this time.  Once made, the choice is permanent.

ALIGNMENT WITH TWO CLASSES:

The two classes will have 6 alignment choices between them; some may have the same alignment, but different descriptions.  You must choose 1 of the 6, and may switch between them by the normal process of alignment change.  You gain experience by matching the description of the one that you choose; having the same alignment (such as "Good") appear for two classes does NOT grant two opportunities for experience.  You must choose the "Good" of one class or the other.

GAINING BASIC MOVES FROM A SECOND CLASS.

When you first gain a second class, you will only gain only one of the basic moves of that class, as detailed below.  As you add additional levels in that class, you gain additional basic moves as noted.  By the time you reach level 4 in your second class, you will have access to all of the basic moves.

Bard
1:  Choose one of Charming and Open, A Port in the Storm
2:  Choose one of Charming and Open, A Port in the Storm, Bardic Lore
3:  Choose one of Charming and Open, A Port in the Storm, Bardic Lore, Arcane Art
4:  Gain whichever basic move remains.

Cleric
1:  Gain Commune
2:  Gain Cast a Spell
3:  Choose one of: Divine Guidance, Turn Undead
4:  Gain whichever basic move remains.

Druid
1:  Gain Born of the Soil
2:  Gain Shapeshifter
3:  Choose one of: By Nature Sustained, Spirit Tongue, Studied Essence
4:  Gain whichever two basic moves remain.

Fighter
1:  Choose one of: Bend Bars Lift Gates, Armored
2:  Choose one of: Bend Bars Lift Gates, Armored
3:  Gain Signature Weapon
4:  (Nothing: Only three moves)

Paladin
1:  Choose one of: Armored, I Am the Law
2:  Choose one of: Armored, I Am the Law, Lay on Hands
3:  Choose one of: Armored, I Am the Law, Lay on Hands, Quest
4:  Gain whichever basic move remains.

Ranger
1:  Choose one of: Hunt and Track, Called Shot
2:  Choose one of: Hunt and Track, Called Shot, Animal Companion
3:  Choose one of: Hunt and Track, Called Shot, Animal Companion, Command
4:  Gain whichever basic move remains.

Thief
1:  Choose one of: Flexible Morals, Trap Expert, Poisoner
2:  Choose one of: Flexible Morals, Trap Expert, Poisoner
3:  Choose one of: Flexible Morals, Trap Expert, Tricks of the Trade, Backstab, Poisoner
4:  Gain whichever two basic moves remain.

Wizard
1:  Gain Spellbook
2:  Gain Prepare Spells & Cast a Spell
3:  Gain Spell Defense
4:  Gain Ritual
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 04:17:40 AM by rudy »

Jeremy

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2013, 03:26:02 AM »
That seems very complicated, probably unnecessarily so. It seems like it'd be easier to just allow anyone to take moves from a second playbook when they level up. So when my fighter goes to 2nd level, he can pick a class move from any other class. Then, when he goes to level 3, he can take a fighter advanced move or another move from his second class.

rudy

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2013, 03:29:27 AM »
Hmm... how would that handle gaining spellcasting from another class?  Since you don't have levels in that class, I mean?  I specifically want that to be possible.

rudy

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 04:05:40 AM »
I tried to simplify them a bit:



ROLEPLAYING LIMITATIONS & REQUIREMENTS

The addition of a second class must be roleplayed within the fiction; you do not simply wake up a wizard; build up is required.  If you add "wizard" as your second class, your character should have been reading about/experimenting with arcane magics for a while first.  You may have to seek out a connection with a god to become a cleric, etc.

If you gain a new move that grants you something physical, such as a fighter's signature weapon, a ranger's animal companion, or a wizard's spellbook, then the GM is perfectly justified in requiring that you acquire it in the fiction, through a subquest, spending of coin, or anything else appropriate.

Certain combinations may be infeasible.  For example, *maybe* you can be a thief/paladin, but you won't have access to the Flexible Morals, Backstab or Poisoner moves, so probably not the best combination regardless.  Up to GM, so clear it beforehand.


GAINING A SECOND CLASS

Once you have reached level 5 in your first class, you may (during the "make camp" move) lose 10 accumulated experience points to gain a single level in a second class.  For example, a level 5 cleric may spend 10 accumulated experience points to gain the "wizard" class as well, and becomes a level 5 cleric / level 1 wizard.  You may never have more than two classes.

When you first gain the second class, you do not gain any advanced moves, or a new stat point.  Instead, you gain a few of the basic moves of your new class, as detailed below.  You do not gain any racial moves for your new class, even if your race matches one of the options for that class.  Your HP, damage, and load remain unchanged.

Starting basic moves for second classes:

Bard: Charming and Open, A Port in the Storm, Bardic Lore
Cleric: Commune, Cast a Spell
Druid: By Nature Sustained, Spirit Tongue
Fighter: Bend Bars Lift Gates, Armored
Paladin: Armored, Lay on Hands
Ranger: Hunt and Track, Called Shot
Thief: Flexible Morals, Trap Expert, Poisoner
Wizard: Spellbook, Prepare Spells & Cast a Spell


LEVELING WITH TWO CLASSES:

Your two classes level separately; if I am a Cleric 5 / Wizard 1, I can either use 12 experience to gain a level of cleric, or 8 experience to gain a level of wizard.  You only gain a stat point if you level whichever class is currently your highest (either if it's a tie).  When gaining levels in your first class, you choose advanced moves as normal.

At levels 2 and 4 in your second class, you *must* pick one of the level 2-5 advanced moves for that class; you cannot pick compendium class moves.  You do not gain an advanced move at levels 3 or 5 in your second class.

At level 3 you gain whichever basic moves of the second class that you did not gain at level 1.

At level 5 you are considered to have mastered the second class; at this time, between your two classes you may choose the best from each of hit points, damage, and load.  If you happen to be a race that has racial moves for both classes, you may choose one or the other of them (but not both) at this time. 

For any further levels gained in the second class, you may pick moves from the advanced move list of that class, or from any compendium classes that you have access to.


ALIGNMENT WITH TWO CLASSES:

The two classes will have 6 alignment choices between them; you must choose 1 of the 6, and may switch between them by the normal process of alignment change.  Having the same alignment (such as "Good") appear for two classes does NOT grant two opportunities for experience; in that example, you must choose the "Good" of one class or the other.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 04:35:22 AM by rudy »

Glazius

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 04:49:12 AM »
Hmm... how would that handle gaining spellcasting from another class?  Since you don't have levels in that class, I mean?  I specifically want that to be possible.

Opinion of the book authors is that you start with one level of spellcasting when you take a spellcasting move, and gain capacity equal to one level per level thereafter.

Really I think this will work out better than whatever labyrinthine thing you have going. It seems like a lot of effort and bookkeeping for not much in the way of payout.

Maybe easier just to say "if you justify it to me in the game fiction, you can always pick a multiclass move on levelup".

rudy

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 06:16:14 AM »
Maybe easier just to say "if you justify it to me in the game fiction, you can always pick a multiclass move on levelup".
There's no question that what you suggest would be easier, but presently I'm interested in making it feasible for one player to eventually take on the entire role of two classes, if they wish to.  The point of this system is to figure out a way of doing this which isn't too immediately overpowering, nor completely unappealing.

I'm envisioning a game with exactly three players for this.  If the game ends up being 5 or 6 people, then I'll almost certainly do as you suggest, because the dual role will be overly crowded and completely unnecessary. 

I'd ultimately like the players to be able to expand their move options beyond what is offered by a single class progression, regardless of whether they can take Multiclass moves.  I also see the gaining of a new class as a great roleplay opportunity.

Was what I wrote comprehensible, even if you found it unnecessary?  I'm truly not interested in simply applying the Multiclass move, though I appreciate that others prefer that.

zarathud

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 12:26:18 PM »
Was what I wrote comprehensible, even if you found it unnecessary?  I'm truly not interested in simply applying the Multiclass move, though I appreciate that others prefer that.

I agree that what you wrote is comprehensible and I also agree it is totally unnecessary (see below).

In addition, why the restriction on Alignment?  You can pretty much change your Alignment and or/Alignment Move at any time per the core rules as long is there is justification in the fiction.

Maybe easier just to say "if you justify it to me in the game fiction, you can always pick a multiclass move on levelup".
There's no question that what you suggest would be easier, but presently I'm interested in making it feasible for one player to eventually take on the entire role of two classes, if they wish to.  The point of this system is to figure out a way of doing this which isn't too immediately overpowering, nor completely unappealing.

I'd ultimately like the players to be able to expand their move options beyond what is offered by a single class progression, regardless of whether they can take Multiclass moves.  I also see the gaining of a new class as a great roleplay opportunity.

I'll echo the sentiments of others by saying that allowing the Multiclass move at any level with in game justification achieves your stated intent in an easier fashion and with much more flexibility than you are allowing.

On top of just allowing the Multiclass move at any level, add a single rules tweak:

Multiclass Mastery
When you have obtained all the Starting Moves of another class, you have mastered that class; at this time, between your starting and mastered classes you may choose the best from each of hit points, damage, and load.  You may also choose a Racial Move/Background that is appropriate to either class.

J. Trudel

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2013, 02:02:40 PM »
Zarathud option is simple and elegant, I'd go with that. Another thing you may want to do is to go for a class-less system. You can't have more flexibility than that, but I didn't try if it was balanced or not.

You let the players choose their starting HP and Damage, and it gives them the number of Starting moves they get. They can choose any Starting moves they want.

D4 damage and +4 HP : 5 Starting moves
D6 damage and  +6 HP : 4 Starting moves
D8 damage and + 8 HP : 3 Starting moves
D10 damage and +10 HP : 2 Starting moves

Other combinations are possible. You just go with the average numbers of starting moves.
Example : D10 damage and +6HP would yield 3 Starting moves.

At level-up, they can choose another Starting-move, or choose from the whole move list (If they have the level requiered or any pre-requisite).

rudy

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 02:15:31 PM »
I agree that what you wrote is comprehensible and I also agree it is totally unnecessary (see below).

In addition, why the restriction on Alignment?  You can pretty much change your Alignment and or/Alignment Move at any time per the core rules as long is there is justification in the fiction.

I'll echo the sentiments of others by saying that allowing the Multiclass move at any level with in game justification achieves your stated intent in an easier fashion and with much more flexibility than you are allowing.

On top of just allowing the Multiclass move at any level, add a single rules tweak:

Multiclass Mastery
When you have obtained all the Starting Moves of another class, you have mastered that class; at this time, between your starting and mastered classes you may choose the best from each of hit points, damage, and load.  You may also choose a Racial Move/Background that is appropriate to either class.
I didn't intend for that to be a "restriction" on alignment; I was merely trying to express that one couldn't get experience from both class alignments at once.

I do very much like your concept of Multiclass Mastery, and I may try to adapt from there.  There are only two things that I don't like about it.  One, different core classes have different numbers of basic moves, so I would probably tweak it to say "Once you have selected three basic moves from a second class, you gain any basic moves of that class you had not already selected, and are considered to have mastered that class; at this time..."

The other thing is that it doesn't achieve the *number* of moves that I'm interested in player's achieving; I truly want them to (eventually) be able to do the full job of two classes without having to give up higher powers eventually.  This could be altered by simply granting two moves per level, or something like that, though.  I need to think about it.

Just having the Mastery itself as a rule is a very helpful suggestion, though; thank you.

rudy

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 02:40:51 PM »
Ok, inspired by the input so far, consider please the following:


SECONDARY CLASSES

Once justified in the fiction, you may designate a secondary class.  You do not gain levels in this class, nor any immediate benefit.  Instead, whenever you gain a level, in addition to your normal advanced move, you may select a single basic or a level 2-5 advanced move from your secondary class. 

After you have chosen five "free" moves in this way, you no longer gain the bonus move when you level, but may now freely select moves from the list of either class.

Once you have a total of two basic moves and three (non-multiclass) advanced moves from the secondary class, you are considered to have mastered the class: you gain any basic moves you had not already chosen for the class, and may choose the best of hit points, damage and load from each class.  You may also change your racial move/background to one from the new class, if appropriate.

You may only ever have one secondary class; multiclassing beyond this is limited to the availability of multiclass dabbler/multiclass initiate, etc. moves in your two classes.

J. Trudel

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 05:29:05 PM »

I didn't intend for that to be a "restriction" on alignment; I was merely trying to express that one couldn't get experience from both class alignments at once.

I do very much like your concept of Multiclass Mastery, and I may try to adapt from there.  There are only two things that I don't like about it.  One, different core classes have different numbers of basic moves, so I would probably tweak it to say "Once you have selected three basic moves from a second class, you gain any basic moves of that class you had not already selected, and are considered to have mastered that class; at this time..."

The other thing is that it doesn't achieve the *number* of moves that I'm interested in player's achieving; I truly want them to (eventually) be able to do the full job of two classes without having to give up higher powers eventually.  This could be altered by simply granting two moves per level, or something like that, though.  I need to think about it.

Just having the Mastery itself as a rule is a very helpful suggestion, though; thank you.

I only see one major issue with your multiclassing. What about my single class Bard ? The guy who multiclass has way  more manoeuvers than I have, it's unfair.

In this case nobody can have a single class character. If you trully want a character to fulfill two classes at the same time, why not just give him both classes starting moves, and 2 new moves per level ?

rudy

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 06:12:01 PM »
I only see one major issue with your multiclassing. What about my single class Bard ? The guy who multiclass has way  more manoeuvers than I have, it's unfair.
Yeah, that's a good point, and one I was worrying about, too.  I do want the gaining of the second class to slow down the advancement in the other, so that it's not an automatic thing.  What do you think about the following:

SECONDARY CLASSES

Once justified in the fiction, you may designate a secondary class.  You do not gain levels in this class, nor any immediate benefit.  However, from that point on, you may spend 10 experience to gain a basic or level 2-5 advanced move from the move list of that class; this does not increase your level.  You may gain a total of 5 moves in this way.

Once you have a total of two basic moves and three (non-multiclass) advanced moves from the secondary class, you are considered to have mastered the class: you gain any basic moves you had not already chosen for the class, and may choose the best of hit points, damage and load from each class.  You may also change your racial move/background to one from the new class, if appropriate.  From then on, when gaining a level, you may freely choose from the move list of either class.

You may only ever have one secondary class; multiclassing beyond this is limited to the availability of multiclass dabbler/multiclass initiate, etc. moves in your two classes.

END

Experience point cost subject to adjustment.  This makes it a real choice between mastering a second class, and continuing to the advanced moves of the first, I think.

J. Trudel

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2013, 08:55:24 PM »

Yeah, that's a good point, and one I was worrying about, too.  I do want the gaining of the second class to slow down the advancement in the other, so that it's not an automatic thing.  What do you think about the following:

SECONDARY CLASSES

Once justified in the fiction, you may designate a secondary class.  You do not gain levels in this class, nor any immediate benefit.  However, from that point on, you may spend 10 experience to gain a basic or level 2-5 advanced move from the move list of that class; this does not increase your level.  You may gain a total of 5 moves in this way.

Once you have a total of two basic moves and three (non-multiclass) advanced moves from the secondary class, you are considered to have mastered the class: you gain any basic moves you had not already chosen for the class, and may choose the best of hit points, damage and load from each class.  You may also change your racial move/background to one from the new class, if appropriate.  From then on, when gaining a level, you may freely choose from the move list of either class.

You may only ever have one secondary class; multiclassing beyond this is limited to the availability of multiclass dabbler/multiclass initiate, etc. moves in your two classes.

END

Experience point cost subject to adjustment.  This makes it a real choice between mastering a second class, and continuing to the advanced moves of the first, I think.

I think automaticaly gaining moves gives too much moves to a single character.

How about this :

Multiclass

When you level-up you may select a move from another class provided you have the requierements for that move (Level or Move). This move can be taken multiple times. You may continue to gain moves from another class even after you have mastered that class.

Multiclass Mastery
When you have obtained all the Starting Moves of another class, you have mastered that class; at this time, between your starting and mastered classes you may choose the best from each of hit points, damage, and load.  You may also choose a Racial Move/Background that is appropriate to either class.

zarathud

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2013, 09:22:15 PM »
Don't forget these important points from the rulebook:

For the purpose of multiclassing, any starting class moves that depend on each other count as one move - for example, if you take the Wizard's Cast a Spell move, you also immediately get the Spellbook and Prepare Spells move, for example.

If a move from another class refers to your level, count your levels from the level where you first gained a move from that class.

rudy

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Re: New Rules For Having Two Classes: Input Desired.
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2013, 10:02:35 PM »
I think automaticaly gaining moves gives too much moves to a single character.

It's not automatic, because they are losing experience to gain the moves, and therefore falling behind characters who don't do so immediately in levels, which hurts them in stats, and especially if they are spellcasters.

The problem with your alternative suggestion, for my desires, is that I *want* the players to have more moves.  I want them to be able to be two classes fully, given enough experience and fiction development, without sacrificing their higher level moves.  Ultimately, a "maxed out" character under the system I'm suggesting here, would have the basic moves of two classes, and a total of 12 (instead of 9) advanced move picks.  It would take him a total of 50 additional experience points to reach that "maxed out" point than a standard character.

Another comparison, is that the same amount of experience would get you to be a 10th level character without taking a secondary class, or to be a 7th level character with a mastered secondary class (technically, a few experience points short of 7th level).  So, it's not "for free".
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 10:36:14 PM by rudy »