Author Topic: Crits and Fumbles  (Read 4662 times)

skinnyghost

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Crits and Fumbles
« on: November 14, 2012, 07:16:03 PM »
So, I'm infected with DCC-itis and their crits and fumbles are some of my favourite stuff.  What would a critical hit or fumble look like on a DW roll?  What are the statistical differences between a 1 on a d20 and snake eyes on a pair of D6s?  What kind of things might happen on a "natural two"?  Does each move get it's own fumble or crit?

What do you think?

Scrape

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 07:24:13 PM »
Personally, I'm against crits in DW. I find them kinda distracting and  I'd rather build consequences out of the descriptions going into the move. That said, DW has more realistic odds than a flat d20 roll or whatever, and I'll confess to having dished out some extra-harsh or extra-sweet treatment when I've seen boxcars or snakeyes hit the table.

I'd say a crit in DW shouldn't affect the damage; that's been established. Rather, I see them handing out an additional unforeseen fictional result: dropping a weapon, gaining ground, better positioning, that sort of thing. That'd be cool.

azrianni

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2012, 07:46:48 PM »
In Apocalypse World, at some point you can gain access to another level of success on a 12+, and that's certainly something that you could easily enough factor in to DW. It could be an advanced move option, or maybe just something you open up at a certainly level.

The GM has the full range of moves available on any 6-, though, so I don't see the point in hammering them harder just because of the dice on that.

Johnstone

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2012, 08:30:14 PM »
Boxcars is a lot less common than a 20. What if the whole party benefited when one of them rolled it?

skinnyghost

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2012, 09:05:46 PM »
Boxcars is a lot less common than a 20. What if the whole party benefited when one of them rolled it?

Yeah, totally.  Some "turn the tide" effect on either one.  It's really more an experiment than anything.  I sort of like the randomness and excitement on rolling REALLY WELL or REALLY SHIT.

noofy

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 10:46:45 PM »
Maybe a list? So when you roll double 6's you get to choose an extra narrative effect from the (generic) awesome list?

Likewise on snake eyes, you have to choose an extra option from the sucky list - or maybe the character with the least bond with you chooses - (in addition to the GM making their move).

noclue

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2012, 01:42:29 AM »
On a 2, the GM makes as hard a move as they like...oh, wait. Nm ;)
James R.

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER

Johnstone

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2012, 02:50:25 AM »
So like in tremulus if you roll a natural 12, you get a point of lore or whatever, which made me think about this when that game was announced.

Do you actually remember any time somebody rolled a natural 2 or 12 in Apocalypse World? Like if I mention "that time Andrew rolled snake eyes," would it ring a bell? I'm guessing no.

Now, is that because it's a 1 in 36 chance and you don't roll a billion times every time you fight, or is it just because the actual specific number doesn't mean anything, it's only the result you trigger that matters?

I'm not sure, but in D&D one time we had characters being transported into the past to fight in gladiatorial combat and after losing a bunch of characters one was triumphant and returned to the present. We wanted to know if all the dead people came back too, so the DM said, "okay, if you roll a 20." I had seen Cam roll 20 a couple times earlier with his yellow d20, so I told him to roll that one, he did, and... he rolled a 20. And we all cheered, and we got our dead characters back, and more importantly all their stuff. But I don't remember something like that in AW.

Scrape

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2012, 03:10:04 AM »
Do you actually remember any time somebody rolled a natural 2 or 12 in Apocalypse World? Like if I mention "that time Andrew rolled snake eyes," would it ring a bell? I'm guessing no.

Now, is that because it's a 1 in 36 chance and you don't roll a billion times every time you fight, or is it just because the actual specific number doesn't mean anything, it's only the result you trigger that matters?

This is actually the exact reason I don't like the idea of critical results in DW. Instead of remembering fantastic dice rolls, I'd like to remember fantastic events or actions. When my players reminisce about the campaign, they talk about crazy stunts they pulled. They remember when the Thief threw a grappling hook to climb up the King of Cloud Giants and steal his crown, and how the King grabbed the rope and used the Thief-on-a-rope as a flail. No one remembers what the dice roll was.

Scrape

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2012, 03:21:05 AM »
BUT BUT BUT... there's no reason you couldn't throw in some extra awesome stuff for natural 2s and 12s. I'd shy away from mechanical benefits or penalties, for sure. Instead I'd continue the tiered results and on a natural 12, you get more than you ask for. Just like there's always a way for something to go wrong, there's always a chance that something can go even better than you'd hoped for. That's fun as hell, dropped weapons and frightened enemies and once-in-a-lifetime shots that split the other guy's arrow in mid-flight and stuff like that.

While I'm thinking about it, though, I've kinda noticed a tendency with some roleplayers to go for the hail mary throw when the chips are down. Maybe it's just my experience, but some people will just try something pointless without thinking, and say "Well, I could always roll a crit!" I don't really like that, it places more importance on the dice roll than on any sense of planning or building a believable game fiction. Anyway, my point is that crits should probably only be used in combat. Getting a critical hit on a Parley roll just seems... weird, y'know?

Johnstone

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2012, 03:50:15 AM »
Getting a critical hit on a Parley roll just seems... weird, y'know?

All due respect Scrapey my man, but no... I think you are the weird one! This other time I was playing D&D, our party was hanging out with these two tengu, and at the end of the session, after we killed some monsters and looted some treasure together, the DM asked us to make reaction rolls to see what the two tengu thought of us. I rolled a crit! So they wanted to be my 5th level magic-user's henchman (she is a 12-year-old girl, btw). Technically, I had a +1 Charisma bonus, so an 11 would have had the same effect, but I still remember that roll. It was exactly like having manipulate opened and rolling a 12+ in AW -- they became my allies.

Of course, just like them Cloud Giants thing up there, I remember it because I got two awesome bird-man retainers, but "rolling a 20" is shorthand for getting a cool thing that happens only rarely, and only because of luck, so there's that I guess.

Going back to Adam's "turning the tide" thing, though... When I learned about the tremulus rule, I thought it would be better if everybody was affected because it focuses attention back to the table and the other players. When somebody rolls and it has nothing to do with your character, you don't have a lot of reason to care. But of there's even a small chance it might affect you (in a good way), there's incentive there to at least pay enough attention to check the roll, which has an effect on your attention as a whole. I think your "natural 12 effect" should probably be different for each character, though. Your guy always gets the same bonus thing, whatever it is, when anybody rolls boxcars. My guy gets something different. Maybe the cleric can heal himself or somebody else right away, the fighter gets an extra damage die to use later on, the mule gets an extra piece of gear stock, etc etc.

As opposed to like a thing that the GM says that is good for everybody, because that doesn't focus their attention onto the person rolling, it's just the GM reminding them that a thing happened.

Scrape

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2012, 05:01:03 AM »
Hmmm so you're thinking that a natural 12 is a Moment of Inspiration and the character's crazy good performance inspires everyone else to step up? That's a fun idea, too.

If it was just normal old-fashioned personal crit results, the mechanics and fiction are so tightly intertwined that I think a list of effects would be tough, but maybe a +1forward would work? I think I'd be more likely to just push the player's result and throw out something like, "Oh yeah, you rolled a 12? Man, not only do you push past him but you totally bowl him over, he's on the ground looking stunned."

skinnyghost

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 05:59:00 AM »
Johnstone and I are of a like mind in this instance.

nemomeme

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2012, 01:33:00 AM »
Critical misses and hits are one of the best things in almost any d20 game and particularly in DCC.

I'm a big fan of any mechanic that focuses attention when it's not "your turn".  It's great in boardgames and it's even better in RPGs.

Definitely stealing some ideas here.

Okasvi

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Re: Crits and Fumbles
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2012, 09:23:16 AM »
You could look at neko ewen's Dragon World Hack's (http://yarukizero.wordpress.com/tag/dragon-world/) Snake Eyes/Boxcars Random Event Tables for inspiration, they're basically just charts that change the general situation for the better or worse whenever the natural extremes of the 2d6 roll hit the table. They're meant for a more comedic game but they look like a decent way to implement crit like effects into *world games.