Author Topic: Seizing A Life By Force  (Read 25397 times)

skinnyghost

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Seizing A Life By Force
« on: September 17, 2010, 07:16:47 PM »
Let's say I have a shotgun.  Let's say some random NPC doesn't.  He has no armor, either.  I chase him into a shed, wanting to take him hostage.  Guns are out, there've been some shots fired, we're definitely out of Go Aggro territory and into Seize by Force territory.

Say I want to Seize this sucker.  I don't want to kill him, though.  What's the deal?  I mean, there's no "deal little harm" option.  I can take the "Take definite hold" option and the "Frighten or Dismay or Whatever" option but he's still taken 3 harm, BLAM!, and is pretty much toast.

How, in the midst of a battle, can I get my hands on this slippery little jerk?

Michael Pfaff

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2010, 07:25:57 PM »
Since he doesn't have a gun, I'd say it'd be more Go Aggro in that situation.

"Come with me or you die!"

He can always choose to die.

Chris

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2010, 07:27:52 PM »
That's the question. You CAN Go Aggro; I'd allow it. In movies or books, there'd be a chase to the shed and then a beat where the dude figures out hes trapped and has no gun and there's a dude with a shotgun between him and the door.

Now it's up to the NPC. Is he really gonna try to fight his way out, unarmed, against a dude with a shotgun?

No? Is he just thinking about it? Then yeah. How is the PC trying to take him hostage? Probably by talking to him or threatening him with the shotgun to stand down and give up. Go Aggro.

But let's say that he's gonna fight, unarmed, against a dude with a shotgun. Then yeah, we're Seizing him By Force, as a hostage. How are you doing it?

"Well, I don't want to kill him. If he tries to get around me, I'm gonna butt him with my shotgun, right in the head." Roll+Hard and he gets only 1 harm by default, 2 with terrible.

Or "Hell, if this dude tries to get around me, I'm gonna get blastastic on him. Hostages work better if they're already bleeding!". Roll+hard and the dude gets blasted.

There's always option away from the mechanics, in the fiction, that influence the mechanics. Don't want to shoot him? Then you're not Seizing with the shotgun.

It's all Up To The Fiction.
A player of mine playing a gunlugger - "So now that I took infinite knives, I'm setting up a knife store." Me - "....what?" Him - "Yeah, I figure with no overhead, I'm gonna make a pretty nice profit." Me - "......"

skinnyghost

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2010, 07:28:06 PM »
Okay, so say he's got a gun.  Does that change things?  Or a crowbar?  Or five chainsaws strapped to his arms?  

Also, I don't want to give him a choice - hence my seizure.

skinnyghost

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2010, 07:31:16 PM »
I suppose what I'm really asking is - If I want to take control of a person and it's in the midst of some already-violent-shit, there's no mechanical way to Seize them without also exploding them with harm, right?

Michael Pfaff

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2010, 07:31:21 PM »
Okay, so say he's got a gun.  Does that change things?  Or a crowbar?  Or five chainsaws strapped to his arms?  

Also, I don't want to give him a choice - hence my seizure.

But, he always has a choice right?

If he has a weapon, it just means he can fight back. Then, you're Seizing by Force.

If you don't intend to do him harm (even if he doesn't come), you're better off not Going Aggro or Seizing...

You're better off Manipulating him. But, then you need leverage right? What do you have on this guy to make him do what you want?

Michael Pfaff

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2010, 07:32:28 PM »
I suppose what I'm really asking is - If I want to take control of a person and it's in the midst of some already-violent-shit, there's no mechanical way to Seize them without also exploding them with harm, right?

Not unless you Go Aggro or don't use a shotgun (as Chris suggested).

Chris

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2010, 07:33:40 PM »
Okay, so say he's got a gun.  Does that change things?  Or a crowbar?  Or five chainsaws strapped to his arms?  

Also, I don't want to give him a choice - hence my seizure.

Then it's probably Seize by Force. To me, Seize by Force v. Go Aggro is also about what the NPC is doing. If there's a beat and it makes sense to have the PC intimidate them, then it's Go Aggro, weapon or no. If the NPC isn't hesitating, just wants to fight, then it's Seize By Force, weapon or no. I just see the dude pausing there if he's got no weapon. But the weapon is besides the point.

So the problem is "I want to take a hostage by force without killing them", Right?

You're in the same situation in real life. You wandered into a Die Hard movie. Whatever. How would you do that?
A player of mine playing a gunlugger - "So now that I took infinite knives, I'm setting up a knife store." Me - "....what?" Him - "Yeah, I figure with no overhead, I'm gonna make a pretty nice profit." Me - "......"

skinnyghost

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2010, 07:35:52 PM »
You can't Go Aggro in that situation.

"Going aggro means using violence or the threat of violence to control somebody else’s behavior, without (or before) fighting."

Emphasis mine.

skinnyghost

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2010, 07:36:39 PM »
Okay, so say he's got a gun.  Does that change things?  Or a crowbar?  Or five chainsaws strapped to his arms?  

Also, I don't want to give him a choice - hence my seizure.

You're in the same situation in real life. You wandered into a Die Hard movie. Whatever. How would you do that?

I suppose I'd try to disarm him (Seizing his weapon by force) but in doing so, I'd end up killing him. 

Splat!  Dead NPC again.  Hmmm...

Michael Pfaff

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2010, 07:38:26 PM »
I suppose I'd try to disarm him (Seizing his weapon by force) but in doing so, I'd end up killing him. 

Splat!  Dead NPC again.  Hmmm...

You're not using the shotgun to disarm him are you? If so, probably. If you're just trying to snatch it from him, you could use fists. It wouldn't kill him and you have it. You could do the same with him (wrestling him to the ground).

But, pointing a gun at someone and telling them to come with you, you'll likely need to use that gun.

skinnyghost

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2010, 07:39:57 PM »

You're not using the shotgun to disarm him are you? If so, probably. If you're just trying to snatch it from him, you could use fists. It wouldn't kill him and you have it. You could do the same with him (wrestling him to the ground).

But, pointing a gun at someone and telling them to come with you, you'll likely need to use that gun.

Mhmm, I think that in actual play this kind of thing would be way less confused.  I'm not trying to be obtuse, just sort of arguing for the rules.  I think that if it really happened, Go Aggro might be acceptible. 

The rules, however, say that if you Seize, they take harm.  NPCs are very fragile.

Maybe what I'm actually saying is that Go Aggro should apply even during a fight.  *shrug*

Michael Pfaff

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2010, 07:42:43 PM »
Mhmm, I think that in actual play this kind of thing would be way less confused.  I'm not trying to be obtuse, just sort of arguing for the rules.  I think that if it really happened, Go Aggro might be acceptible.  

The rules, however, say that if you Seize, they take harm.  NPCs are very fragile.

Maybe what I'm actually saying is that Go Aggro should apply even during a fight.  *shrug*

Like Chris said, if the NPC is fighting you, you're in a fight. Seize. If he's just hesitating, standing there trying to figure out how to get the fuck out of the shed, he's not. Go Aggro.

Let's say we're in a big battle, and one of the guys in an enemy gang runs out of ammo. He stands there for a second and tries pulling the trigger a few times. Click. Click. Click. He's out of ammo. You smile, aim your shotgun, and say, "Now. Put the gun down and come with me." So, we might be in the midst of this big battle, but in that situation, right there, you're going aggro.

Chris

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2010, 07:45:16 PM »
Maybe what I'm actually saying is that Go Aggro should apply even during a fight.  *shrug*

Yeah it depends on how it plays out in game. In a movie, we're fighting, we're fighting, I get knocked off the roof.  I run into the shed. You come in after me. I'm trapped in there, at the back wall, like "shit". I turn to you. We're not fighting. That's not what's going on. Now we have a moment. Go Aggro? Or do I bull rush you?

In play, it's one of those beats where, since AW doesn't have initiative, it's really up to where the flow is. Maybe the MC makes a move here. Maybe you do. All Up To Play.
A player of mine playing a gunlugger - "So now that I took infinite knives, I'm setting up a knife store." Me - "....what?" Him - "Yeah, I figure with no overhead, I'm gonna make a pretty nice profit." Me - "......"

skinnyghost

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Re: Seizing A Life By Force
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2010, 07:47:48 PM »
Interesting that there's no way to pull your punches.