Author Topic: In Progress: Beta 3.0  (Read 10445 times)

theloneamigo

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In Progress: Beta 3.0
« on: August 31, 2012, 03:25:00 AM »
Yes, this hack is still alive! I've just started my third rewrite of the rules for Rogue Trader: Apocalypse. After having run several different Apocalypse World hacks, including MotW, Monsterhearts and Dungeon World, I'm in a much better position to write new rules that take full advantage of the AW framework (or steal them wholesale from other hacks).

You can find the Google Docs folder here: Rogue Trader: Apocalypse - Beta 3.0

Changes so far:
  • Rewritten gear & acquisitions system that makes acquiring common items a piece of cake, and acquiring rare items a difficult task.
  • New moves rules relating to the Warp, faith, and corruption that take their cues from Monsterhearts. Instead of acquiring corruption slowly over time, PCs risk succumbing to Insanities when they cannot hold true to their beliefs in the face of terror.
  • New and revised playbooks for Missionary, Explorator, Astropath, Arch-Militant, and Navigator. Missionaries now lead a flock that does their bidding, while Explorators are like Savvyheads on crack - one of their moves (Heretek) allows them to ignore one of the conditions the MC imposes from their workshop-esque move.
  • Rapport stats replaced with Bonds from DW - in my experience, these are easier to explain to players and work better in play than Hx.

Areas to work on:
  • Need to revise social & influence moves. I'm not sure my current system, where PCs build up an Hx-like stat called "Influence" with organisations, is the most elegant.
  • Ship rules. I'm determined to keep the conceit of ship playbooks, but the actual rules for the operation of ships need serious work. Currently, ship combat is mechanically broken and rather dull in play. I'm going to take my cues from DW and Stars Without Number here, because the rules in DW make AW combat interesting, while SWN has a great system for keeping all the players engaged in ship combat, not just the captain.
  • Additionally, harm, combat, and healing need a few tweaks. I feel like AW's 6-harm clock doesn't offer enough latitude for the larger-than-life battles of the 40k universe. DW combat is closer to the ideal level for personal combat, but doesn't scale as well for mass battles.
  • Revise playbooks for Rogue Trader, Dilettante, Marshal-at-Arms, Seneschal, and Archivist.
  • Write origins, introduction, look for all playbooks.

Stuff that probably doesn't need to change:
  • MC rules, moves, threats, and fronts. The Eight Winds of Chaos provide a great framework for setting out threats, and the threats I've already established work just fine.
  • Most of the basic moves work just fine in play - only the moves relating to the warp needed to be rebooted.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 05:34:00 AM by theloneamigo »
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Guns_n_Droids

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Re: In Progress: Beta 3.0
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2012, 11:18:13 PM »
Hi. I actually ran a game for a fairly long time with your hack(and with some additions by myself where it didn't cover). Anyway, excited to see things are going.
Couple of questions:
1) Last edition there were two basic moves regarding beyond - one to ask questions - for most characters only from Warp(and entities therein) and one to seek the Emperor's guidance(which was to give +1-fwds and put characters on missions)

both were particularly important for us (especially that Missioner started by using BOTH with latter giving him what basically became "current game's quest" and former tempting the hell outta him) - and both were interesting. While I see the former is somewhat still present, there's no "call for His Guidance" in this version.
a) why is that so? what was the reason to remove it? (no offense of course, and anyway I can use it as custom move; just interested)
b) in-game how do you reason the idea that potentially any PC can call for the forces of warp at almost anytime without any sort of learning or whatnot?
For my game I just explained to my players that their PCs are special otherwise they won't be PCs, so Warp is particularly interested in their souls(compared to those unintelligent unheroic masses) and is ever listening, waiting to make its move. Do you agree with this idea and if so, do you suppose that similar-level NPCs like inquisitors are also highly susceptible?

2) power armour just gives +1hard?

3) Navigating the warp:
Quote
When you guide a star-vessel through the Immaterium, roll +Will. On a hit, the journey is safe and steady.

All navigators have +3 will as base and +1 will as advance. So at start they have only 1/12 chance to actually have some problems during warp-voyage? (and 1/36 after getting +4 will)

and there's whole other fact that ALL their moves that roll something rely on their Will which is +3. feels kinda cheesy. Even Battlebabe in AW(which looks a lot like it with the stat-line) only has one move from six involving cool(+3).

I'm just interested, why? mainly with warp travel, 'cause that, I suppose, shows your opinion on the nature of RT warptravel (generally safe and sound).

----------------------------
What I very much liked:
Astropath
Explorator
more or less - Panoply
quite nice idea with Insanities. If I may, some ideas:
-Rogue Trader: power hunger. risking anything and paying anything for the promise of power. Leaving: either when someone you value dearly has suffered for your ambitions or when someone demonstrates utter selflessness in front of you.
-Arch-Militant: paranoia. reacting at anything like its a threat, suspecting anyone of betrayal, and ultimately not trusting anyone except yourself
leaving: either when you do grave(not necesserily but quite possibly mortal) harm to someone innocent to sate your paranoia or when someone selflessly helps you.
-TechPriest: cold logic. ignoring any and all claims of faith and believing only hard facts as well as treating machines as most important and above all.
leave: either when your logic and love for technology endangers you and everyone around or...

Any VoidMaster? I had some ideas for this, mostly based on AW driver.

--Guns

theloneamigo

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Re: In Progress: Beta 3.0
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 09:06:59 AM »
Hi. I actually ran a game for a fairly long time with your hack(and with some additions by myself where it didn't cover). Anyway, excited to see things are going.

Someone actually ran my hack? That is so cool. I really want to pick your brains about how your game went and what you think the hack needs, but I'll address your questions first:

Quote
1) Last edition there were two basic moves regarding beyond - one to ask questions - for most characters only from Warp(and entities therein) and one to seek the Emperor's guidance(which was to give +1-fwds and put characters on missions)

both were particularly important for us (especially that Missioner started by using BOTH with latter giving him what basically became "current game's quest" and former tempting the hell outta him) - and both were interesting. While I see the former is somewhat still present, there's no "call for His Guidance" in this version.
a) why is that so? what was the reason to remove it? (no offense of course, and anyway I can use it as custom move; just interested)
b) in-game how do you reason the idea that potentially any PC can call for the forces of warp at almost anytime without any sort of learning or whatnot?
For my game I just explained to my players that their PCs are special otherwise they won't be PCs, so Warp is particularly interested in their souls(compared to those unintelligent unheroic masses) and is ever listening, waiting to make its move. Do you agree with this idea and if so, do you suppose that similar-level NPCs like inquisitors are also highly susceptible?

The consolidation of the two beyond moves into one basically derives from two insights: one, that I wasn't entirely clear what the fictional purpose of either move was, and two, the realisation that the Emperor, in the 40k mythos, is in large part a warp entity too. Interestingly enough, it sounds like you resolved insight one in your own game. However, I don't think your usage is incompatible with the new moves - it's just that the Emperor is now considered a entity of the Immaterium. I haven't removed the concept of praying to the emperor for guidance - it now just uses the same move as asking the Chaos Gods. With regards to b) - yes, essentially, the player characters are living legends and their actions shape the destiny of whole systems, so of course they attract the attention of entities from beyond the material world. Opening your mind to the Immaterium doesn't necessarily imply that you allow the full force of chaos to wedge itself into your skull, and it can be far more subtle than opening your third eye and staring directly into the Immaterium - a brief prayer, a consultation of the Imperial tarot, or some kind of drug-induced vision trance can all trigger this move.

Quote
2) power armour just gives +1hard?

Oh man, power armour is giving me a huge headache. I'm not sure what it should do. I realise now that +1 Hard is ridiculously unbalanced, because it gives the Arch-Militant the opportunity to have +4 Hard. Previously it worked more like the Driver's relationship with his car, which is one option, but it's a lot harder to get an individual out of power armour than out of their car. My other thought is to make it function like the Gunlugger's NOT TO BE FUCKED WITH move - an individual wearing power armour effectively counts as a small company - but I'm not sure that's ideal either.

Quote
3) Navigating the warp:
Quote
When you guide a star-vessel through the Immaterium, roll +Will. On a hit, the journey is safe and steady.

All navigators have +3 will as base and +1 will as advance. So at start they have only 1/12 chance to actually have some problems during warp-voyage? (and 1/36 after getting +4 will)

and there's whole other fact that ALL their moves that roll something rely on their Will which is +3. feels kinda cheesy. Even Battlebabe in AW(which looks a lot like it with the stat-line) only has one move from six involving cool(+3).

I'm just interested, why? mainly with warp travel, 'cause that, I suppose, shows your opinion on the nature of RT warptravel (generally safe and sound).

Yes, travelling the Warp with a PC Navigator is very safe (comparibly). My idea is that there will be a separate ship move for navigating through the warp when there's not a PC navigator on board - more similar to the warp move in the old version, where a 10+ just gets you there safely and a 7-9 gets you there with serious complications. In addition, if there's some kind of warp-storm or Tyranid shadow, I'd advise writing a custom move to deal with the situation.

With regards to the Navigator's stat line, them being able to get +4 Will was a cut-and-paste error on my part. They can't, and I'd make "no stats above +3" a general rule when it comes to running this game.

With regards to their relative balance - I think it's okay. Like AW, this hack is balanced across several different axis: mindshare effectiveness, fictional effectiveness, and mechanical effectivenesss. Navigators have a tonne of mechanical effectiveness with their high Will and powerful moves, but they don't command as much mindshare as the Rogue Trader, or as much control over the fiction as the Explorator with their command of technomancy. Still, I'll definitely keep your thoughts in mind.

Quote
----------------------------
What I very much liked:
Astropath
Explorator
more or less - Panoply
quite nice idea with Insanities. If I may, some ideas:
-Rogue Trader: power hunger. risking anything and paying anything for the promise of power. Leaving: either when someone you value dearly has suffered for your ambitions or when someone demonstrates utter selflessness in front of you.
-Arch-Militant: paranoia. reacting at anything like its a threat, suspecting anyone of betrayal, and ultimately not trusting anyone except yourself
leaving: either when you do grave(not necesserily but quite possibly mortal) harm to someone innocent to sate your paranoia or when someone selflessly helps you.
-TechPriest: cold logic. ignoring any and all claims of faith and believing only hard facts as well as treating machines as most important and above all.
leave: either when your logic and love for technology endangers you and everyone around or...

Any VoidMaster? I had some ideas for this, mostly based on AW driver.

--Guns

Thanks for the ideas and feedback! I'm definitely going to write some kind of star-pilot / voidmaster playbook, but I'm going to hold off on it until I've got the rules for starships down.

Now, time to pick your brain! There's some specific areas I'd like to know about:
a) Did you use the social / political / influence moves to any great extent? Did you find them compelling drivers of fiction, or were they awkward in play?
b) Did you use ship playbooks and combat rules? Did you find them compelling? What about balanced?
c) What playbooks saw use in your game? How did the fiction evolve? Did you use the MC playsheet I posted, or did you work by your own code?
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Guns_n_Droids

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Re: In Progress: Beta 3.0
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2012, 01:49:15 AM »
Okay, first: not so much "ran" as "running" - we're doin' it in skype, and as usual kinda slow-y, so we're at about half of the first story using this system(second one at all).

next, about Emperor and the entities of the warp. In my game this was kinda important that He by default gave you absolutely NO insight. He's harsh, He's brutal and grimdark - you go there do that, scum, and that's how you serve Him. No saying you'll live, no saying you'll be praised - you'll do his mission and fairly probably die in His service.
But of course He gives you power to go through in form of +1-forward(or ongoing)

Warp is kinder. He answers you. He helps you go through. Just ask. Just ask for our help, first taste's always free...
(And that's no joke - other custom move I added says "after you roll X, if you REALLY want to hit Y, just ask - and you roll Y. at the end of session, roll +(Y-X) to see what you actually got yourself into" - and this move was used at least by one character. He's kinda khorny now)

Interesting example from my game: on the very start of the game missioner(having +2 beyond) was rolling to help Rogue Trader and before that wanted to get Emperor's guidance. He rolled 8 and got, well, sorta Mission from Him directly. To find and help >this man<, who's in capture. No info who he is, where he is, what the hell...you get the picture.
to get answers, to get leads - he had to ask warp. Which was no easy since, you know, warp lies. Not always directly, but ultimately anyway. And pursues its own agenda.
And missioner, being who he is was a sweet piece for it to try, so it was nice and hilarious both.

So while I'll definitely will be keepin' this one, I also suggest you to think about it - as an interesting thing with w40k taste.

about power armor. I like the idea that power armor is almost always special, individual in it is whole other class. See, for me in AW there was always important, what you can do automatically, and what you can't do at all, boundaries between which PCs go. So say Power Armor give character whole different statline(like before, but not "add", just "use") - and while statline itself can be worse, that user had already, it exists on a totally different scale then user was. maybe even some separate moves.

Other variant is to treat it like druid's "change shape" move (you roll armor's +venerable and get hold, which you spend to do awesome space-marine-like things)

Quote
Yes, travelling the Warp with a PC Navigator is very safe (comparibly). My idea is that there will be a separate ship move for navigating through the warp when there's not a PC navigator on board - more similar to the warp move in the old version, where a 10+ just gets you there safely and a 7-9 gets you there with serious complications. In addition, if there's some kind of warp-storm or Tyranid shadow, I'd advise writing a custom move to deal with the situation.
well, I suppose it's just that different people treat WH40k's warp differently, like we say in our group - "each GM has his own WH40k universe". It's just that probably the only thing I liked in original RT(d100 one) was the warp journey roll, and especially because having NOTHING happened was kinda uncommon. It's you and your crew moving through the immaterium, weeks go, sometimes months - and having nothing happening for me is strange already. I think of it as kinda adventure in itself. Maybe something emerges inside the ship(great moment for a GM move "use their ship as a threat"), maybe crew have mutiny or demands or there's unsanctioned psyker who involuntary attunes to the things outside...
So that's just adventuring. more tame with PC nav, less tame without, but no safety, gods.
When you're going without Nav at all... for me it's kinda VERY short of just having warp breach. much more nasty stuff. it can be done, even by NPC ships, but expect it to be very risky even for one jump and progress more as you go further. There is a REASON navigators are widely accepted mutants.
Which, by the way, is a reason for me to think that only a crazy RT will let his Nav out of the ship or anywhere near danger. Because without him whole ship is screwed. even more than without Astropath.

About the class itself - I'll give it another look later, maybe.

couple of things I did with Void-Master:
Quote
MOVES
You get Ace Pilot or One with the Ship, your choice, plus one other void-master move.

Ace Pilot: when in your flyer’s seat:
-You add your flyer’s power to your Defy Danger, Brandish Threats, Seize by Force and Help/Hinder rolls
-You add your flyer’s looks to your Seduce/Manipulate rolls when it’s applicable
-Anyone trying to Hinder you mid-flight adds your flyer’s weakness to their roll

One with the Ship:

You add +1 to the ship’s special move.

Daredevil: if you go straight into danger without hedging your bets, you get +1armor. If you happen to be leading a squad or party, it gets +1armor too.

Narrow Passages:
Whenever you fight in a tight space(hive corridors/tunnels/spaceship passages)

 -you have at least one hold in Seize, even on fail
 -you can use ship’s corridors as harm-2 ap hand weapon without major problems later, or harm-3 ap messy hand with a necessity of repairs later

. Additionally, when you fight on your own ship and, roll +Bold instead of +Adroit for read situation

It’s been a long time...
When you encounter stranger from Navy, roll +Charm.
On a hit: You’ve seen this one in battle, either on your side, or on the other. On 10+ you also take +1 forward for dealing with him.
On a miss: He’ve seen you also, and he’d like to repay the debts, not in a pleasant manner.


Quote
a) Did you use the social / political / influence moves to any great extent? Did you find them compelling drivers of fiction, or were they awkward in play?
Well, I did use influence, sure, though for my players there was a bit of underperformance, I think - but definitely not worse then what was in d100 system. Anyway, currently my RT player is pulling a lot of favors from Navy betting it all on one sure thing, and if it backfires(which it quite probably will) I'd probably have to make a custom move to see how he goes through =)

Quote
b) Did you use ship playbooks and combat rules? Did you find them compelling? What about balanced?
well, no, in fact, which worries me somewhat since we're about to move into ship-to-ship battles soon. one of the reasons I did not use yours is that my RT's ship is a raider - we generated it in original RT, and didn't want to just toss all the story aside. I'd have to get them something better at a certain point, I'm afraid(not 'cause I don't like nice ships in PC hands, but because this one already has quite a history, and... well, I don't think Mal Raynolds would abandon Serenity just to have something bigger and more powerful).
I had some thoughts about ship battles and made aforementioned Voidmaster move. To be short, we have basic moves for ships, we have their statlines and then each class of ship has Special Move - not AW kind of special %) but more of a traditional meaning.
Cruiser will ponder with broadside, frigate will hit-and-strafe, utilizing both maneuverability and firepower, carrier will engulf with bombers, raider will zip around and strike into a weak point. Only with a good voidmaster. By default of course raider still have speed and all, but it needs a good helmsman to utilize it.
[Transport, by the way, was supposed to be less "battle" and more "utility", as its cargo-holds are so big there can be virtually anything found]

but I see you're going to rewrite this anyway, so I'm waiting to see what you'd do about it. 

Quote
c) What playbooks saw use in your game? How did the fiction evolve? Did you use the MC playsheet I posted, or did you work by your own code?
playbooks are
-RT
[by the way, I see you same as me added to RT playbook +1Bold move. Though I named it a bit differently, "Elusive as void itself" - I'll ask my RT player does he like your more, as mine is quite uncharacterful for him. Which I think is totally good and fine, move names SHOULD matter fictionally]
-Missioner
[by the way, I think I'll be reworking his divine minstration(as well as maybe some other Emperor'callin' moves) to work more like cleric in DW - right now divine healing became too common, and a bit unlike traditional wh40k verse-ish]
-Voidmaster [Kevin "Ram It!" Hasselhoff, who quite likes going in without hedging bets]
-Arch-Militant(fairly overpowered class for my taste - though fictional implications of "Stone-cold killer" move are catching up with our militant, and he's already paranoidal. I think later I'd give him an option to buy it out, loosing a bit of martial prowess but saving sanity)
-Explorator(again I already wrote my own Playbook, though I think I'll ask my player if he wants to switch. Here is my version, not fully done, just what is in use currently. Call of Metall was custom move my player wanted to have, so I used a bit of MoW)
-There's also Senechal - and I like your book there a lot - but he's not much involved as of now
-as well as Secutor squad, based mechanically on Arch-militant playbook and fictionally being sort of SW clone commandos in wh40k.

Fiction evolved mainly from
a) missionary's prayer I already mentioned which sprung Holy Mission storyline
b) RT's endeavor roll at the very start, which gave us an obvious enemy, pirate "fleet" which proved to be much more then anybody thought.
c) player actions, like attempt to repair Voidmaster's cyber-parrot resulted in
-~20+ gangers dead in underdecks
-suitcase full of thrones(in the end given to the contact below)
-suitcase full of illegal drugs(in the end given to the INQ as our RT is still on the legal side...for now)
-new underworld contact(who in fact was the purpose of the aforementioned gundown, who almost got 2 PCs killed and who got aforementioned suitcase full of money(his own money, to be fair) for the troubles. good thing RT didn't have much profit at the moment, I say, or it could go there, too)
-2 mildly pissed RTs
-one illegal basilisk-like psyker bird.

3) MC sheet wasn't used that much, as I'm in fact not this experienced in fronts writing; I'm doing it only now, in fact, as now most of the threats are formed and easier to see. My bad of course, improv without thinking and structuring can get you only this far

--Guns
P.S. feel free to ask questions =)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 12:19:31 PM by Guns_n_Droids »

Chaomancer

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Re: In Progress: Beta 3.0
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 04:08:13 PM »
A friend of mine is interested in running this hack - which I am very much looking forward to playing! Are you still working on it? Is there anything new?

And would you like feedback, if we do go ahead?

theloneamigo

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Re: In Progress: Beta 3.0
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 02:28:48 AM »
There absolutely is new stuff! Version 4.0 is out at the moment, although honestly it's more like version 3.5; I think version 5 might more directly switch up some of the basic moves.

And I always, always love feedback.
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Chaomancer

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Re: In Progress: Beta 3.0
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 10:37:00 AM »
There absolutely is new stuff! Version 4.0 is out at the moment, although honestly it's more like version 3.5; I think version 5 might more directly switch up some of the basic moves.

And I always, always love feedback.

Thanks! It'll be a few weeks before we give it a shot, most likely.

I have a few questions though - in the basic moves, both OPEN YOUR MIND TO THE IMMATERIUM and HOLD TRUE TO YOUR FAITH call for rolls +Will. Which isn't a stat in the playbooks :) I'm assuming that OPEN YOUR MIND should roll +Warp, what about HOLD TRUE?

There are also a few moves etc that reference ship stats that I don't see there - the Rogue Trader should pick a Shipbook for the ship, for example, and the Eldar Corsair's Ghost Field requires setting shields to 0, but I see no other reference to shields in this version. Is that just a matter of using the ships from version 3?

Also, there doesn't seem to be any explanation of Keys anywhere. Are they simply what's on the sheet?

Sorry for all the questions! Just looking forward to playing.

Arvid

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Re: In Progress: Beta 3.0
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2013, 10:04:06 AM »
There absolutely is new stuff! Version 4.0 is out at the moment, although honestly it's more like version 3.5; I think version 5 might more directly switch up some of the basic moves.

And I always, always love feedback.

It looks great, that's for sure. I want to play this! Maybe you should update the original post, I spent my time reading version 3 before I found your post about version 4. :)