AP The Mansion's Cavity

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AP The Mansion's Cavity
« on: June 06, 2012, 04:45:10 PM »
Here I present the rambling tale of my first experience with DW, kindly hosted by iserith. Near the end I'll list any technical difficulties I had with the system itself.

Started out with char gen, me creating a bumpkin paladin, and the other a street savvy rogue. Classic good cop/bad cop duo. Q&A went apace and I was taken aback. Getting questioned so much felt accusatory; in 4e the, the game I hail from, I usually don't interrogate another player unless I suspect he's doing something stupid, and Socratically I try to reveal the flaw in the logic. Here, the DM was just being curious.

As I understand it, there's an unspoken understanding in DW that any fuel you give your DM will come up later on, because that's neat and otherwise the DM is just jerking you around. This leads to DW's unique form of metagaming. Lemme see if I can articulate. It's skipping ahead, but whatever.

Iserith did a post-game wrap-up where he invited comments and critiques. What we liked, what we didn't. When I got to the "didn't", I said that I like the more personal aspects of the game, which didn't come up because our party chose instead to investigate a tunnel, not known for the abundance of sentient beings. But it wasn't really a fair critique; nothing in the game made us go down that tunnel. I could've done the manor house. But it made sense for the character to do it, so off he went. What followed from the fiction wasn't necessarily what I thought was most fun at the time.

For another example, in the Q&A I provided some world-building in the form of savage people far to the north. Again, I wasn't really trying to populate the world with cool stuff, just sensible things that I got from various outside resources. In this case the nephilim from the Bible. I preface by saying that, should we keep playing, the DM could very well have done something the players loved with those northern peoples. But I wasn't really expecting it; all I foresaw going down that rabbit hole was a wilderness trek followed by giant slaying. Not my cups of tea. While being Q'd, I unconsciously made A's that I didn't care to explore. I was torn being following the fiction instead of the fun. Could be a dilemma of my own making, I dunno. Just an interesting issue I wanted to present.

That strangeness aside, the game was very fun. It flowed great, and I was never bored. It did lead me to wonder why the pdf described 3 or 4 PCs as "best". The party was two, and I found that it was exactly the right number to have a dynamic. With just one it'll become solipsistic, but two? Now you're cooking with gas and watching some sparks fly. I ran a game with three myself, and missed the intimacy of two. Excuse the creepiness. Now, it could be out of concern for balance. A paladin/rogue combo has few alternatives when it comes to problems that can't be solved by stabbing them. If we had the classic quad of cleric, wizard, fighter, rogue, we'd be multifaceted. That's not even getting into the Perilous Journey. At least as a paladin I can provide some magical healing. Don't want to think about how it'd fare with fighter/rogue, or ranger/rogue. Now, I know overcoming shortcomings in terms of party make-up can lead to interesting places, but I couldn't help but be reminded of the similar 4e problem. We need a striker, defender, leader, controller...

Now I'll just lay out some issues that confused me, most of them having to do with the bard. For starters, I can't see a clear resolution to some of her bonds, aside from the bondee vanishing. One is "This is not my first adventure with x." That works great to establish why they're together, but how does it finish? It's simply a fact in the past. The only thing I can think of would be when they finally discuss it; an Anakin-Obi-wan thing. "Remember that time?" "Yeah, I do." Might be a rare example of where Q&A should be withheld. Another hard one is "I sang stories of x before we met." How does that not become relevant? I guess the term "fully explore" is nebulous, or I'm just not that creative.

Their move "Charming and Open" is also strange. As a way to break the ice between PCs it's pretty good. The weakness rests in its inability to affect anyone beyond your own posse, and non-exclusivity. What would prevent any other class from asking the exact same questions, and getting the exact same responses? There's not even a compulsory element to this; the PCs could just as easily tell the nosy bard where she can stick it.

That said, I love the bond system. You can't go wrong incentivizing RP; the most memorable part of that game was when the paladin resolved his bond with the thief (or rogue), whom he previously had "much to learn from". When he learned that the streetwise rogue was in no way more capable than himself, his views on the merits of simple and complex upbringing were turned on their head.

Overall, good game. If I could make a suggestion aside from giving the bard an overhaul with bonds and moves, it'd be to do a more general guide. There is a lot to detox from, just in general and coming from 4e in particular. So many things you have to learn and unlearn, not just for DW, but for tabletop gaming in general. Iserith has been an invaluable aid in this regard, and we've discussed concepts like the session zero, the temptation of prepping, etc. One resource he shared with me is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VShmtsLhkQg , which taught me a lot about what I was doing wrong. At least, if Mr. Cleese is correct.

It may be that general advice, crucial though it may be, is out of the purview of any one specific game or system. The fine folks behind DW are, of course, perfectly justified in not including any. But you should see the carnage going on at the "What's a DM to do?" forum sometime. The need for an RPG lifeline cannot be understated.

So, that's my AP. DW is a refreshing, great system, but the steps people have to take to adequately handle it are something else all together. Doing so has been an adventure in more ways than one.





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stras

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Re: AP The Mansion's Cavity
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2012, 05:34:46 PM »
Hey Frolo! Welcome aboard.  Please forgive me if I paraphrase you - I prefer to go point by point but hopefully my ramblings might be able to help :)

1.  Questions!  I can see why you're concerned a little.  Before we start a session (particularly with new players) I talk a little-bit about the game.  I explain how things are going to go, creative input and so on.  Often I'll bring in quotes from previous players (first game someone pointed out that Dungeon World indicated only dungeons, so I always mention that this is completely not required (tm)).

I find that if you brace the players they do better.  And if I have 1 friend there who's experienced DW before, I pick on them first. Once the others see him get questioned I've actually had a player when I turn to him and ask for a description say "Can I have the questions now?"

So I think it's an acclimatization thing.  When you see someone before you get props for good ideas, and others play off of them it helps break away from past examples I think.

2.  I'm running a game with six people currently.  Yech.  I'd say 2-5 is the sweet spot.  With 2 you usually lack a key role or a key trait but if you're writing a duo story it can work great.  With 3 the 3rd person is usually the one who negotiates peace between the first two.  All of my demo games at origins were 3 player, and everyone keyed very strongly off of each other.  One of the things with 3's is that you can build better pc-npc-pc triangles, or cyclical arrows which you can't with 2's (either they agree or they don't, there is none of that 90 degree push that AW describes).  4's starts subgroups, and 5's has the one strong extra role.  By 6 things get really clunky.  Too many people between focuses, can be a bit rough.

I don't think DW has 4e's hard group dynamic though.  You usually want a butt-kicker (say a fighter) and a non-butt-kicker (say a wizard).  Each class has it's niche so it's not a big deal if you have two different flavors of butt kicker because they do things very differently (ex: paladin can lead men, or be very priesty instead of straight fighty-goodness).  Often times good ideas and storytelling will help far more than specific moves (although sometimes... vica versa).

3.  "This is not my first adventure" can progress to "I'm certain now X has my back" or "we're a well oiled machine" via assists for example.  Similarly "I've sung songs of..." means you're a fan of this kind-of-mythic hero.  This creates a relationship dynamic where you can grow to admire someone, or maybe become disillusioned.  There's a lot of meat there to explore in RP.

4.  Charming and Open is amazing.  I had a bard stop a deadly combat with a demon lord by walking up and talking first (it could have gone ugly, but he was Ramon of house Pandarra after all...).  But most importantly, while you CAN talk to someone and ask these questions, for the bard this is a move.  This means that the bard will more often trade for the truth, as opposed to just hearing what they have to say and having to guess.  You CAN tell the bard where to stick it, but then you won't know what they most desire, or how to get them to do something for you easily.


Your points are salient ones.  One of the greatest challenges of GMing this system has nothing to do with learning the rules or making monsters, but un-teaching the behaviors traditional games have pounded into our heads.  I think hard about every game I run, feedback I receive, and things I notice after every game.  Been running this for a little bit, but I still have so much to learn.

Hope some of this helped! :)

Re: AP The Mansion's Cavity
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2012, 06:00:52 PM »
Thanks for the reply, stras. Nice to know at least one person defied the wall-o'-text danger.

I'm starting to see what you mean by the less-than-clear bonds. What does it mean? Has that meaning changed significantly now?

As for 3, I'm starting to see your point. If you wanted to maximize bondage, you'd be hard-pressed to use all four for the same player. Plus you can have majority votes with an odd-numbered setup.

I've seen C&O houseruled to where it works with NPCs, and is compulsory. But as it's written, doesn't it just work for PCs only?


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stras

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Re: AP The Mansion's Cavity
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2012, 07:59:48 PM »
I'm starting to see what you mean by the less-than-clear bonds. What does it mean? Has that meaning changed significantly now?

Exactly.  As long as you think it's resolved (meaning either played out well enough, changed, or if it has a goal - complete) you can ask the other person if they agree.  If they agree mark XP and cross it out.  It reminds me a bit of buying off (10pt) XP with keys (such as in Lady Blackbird, Marvel Heroic or Shadow of Yesteryear).  It's a change that signals that your relationship has moved on in some fashion.

As for 3, I'm starting to see your point. If you wanted to maximize bondage, you'd be hard-pressed to use all four for the same player. Plus you can have majority votes with an odd-numbered setup.

Correct.  As a sidenote someone on these forums suggested making bonds with organizations, NPCs and so forth.  It's become sort of a driving bit of the story (and plot) in a game I'm running, and I highly recommend it.  House Rule and all that, but we've enjoyed it so far.

I've seen C&O houseruled to where it works with NPCs, and is compulsory. But as it's written, doesn't it just work for PCs only?

When you speak frankly with someone...
Ah I see your question.  The word 'player' there.  Hmm, maybe we should get Sage/Adam to reword (or clarify correctness/intent) of that.  As far as I'm concerned the GM is the 'player' for an NPC but they DO state in chapter 1 that there is the GM and the 'players' (separate entities).  So technically you're right, but I can't imagine running it any other way.

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noofy

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Re: AP The Mansion's Cavity
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2012, 08:38:19 PM »
G'day Frolo!
Stras has great advice, but I had something to add regarding the whole questioning thing. Thanks for the insightful AP, Its really helpful to get a handle on some of the confusion that folks may experience when they come from games like 4e. Which you GM right?

I dig your uncomfortable stance when it comes to provocative questions exploring places you (as a player) have no real interest in. Just be up front about it, even out of character if you have to. I get the need to be helpful and support the GM fill the world with 'sensible' colour, but I really think that upfront as a group you need to establish what 'playing to see what happens' looks like at the table. This can be as simple as reading out loud:
Quote
During character creation, the GM will be asking questions and making plans for how to start the game. A game of Dungeon World always starts with action, either action already underway or impending.
Such a situation will lead to the characters making moves, which will cause further moves. Moves lead to more moves. This snowballing action from move to move is what builds an exciting game. Once a few moves have been made, you'll find it easy to keep going. The moves will keep giving you ideas and prompts for further action which leads to more moves.

Anyways, mostly player's choices from the lists and answers to questions during play are what they are interested in, that's probably why iserith re-incorporated your answers into the fiction. If you (as a player) aren't interested, don't go there. Players have the ability to drive the game in directions too. It just needs for your character to act as your 'conduit' and author in moves and prescriptive fiction that get you (as a player) what you want out of the game. Explore what you are interested by and find fun!



Re: AP The Mansion's Cavity
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2012, 10:31:10 AM »
Thanks for the AP! It was a pleasure running the session for you and your friend. I really liked the fact you had a paladin and a thief and they were able to get past the default (negative) interaction that might otherwise be very common to two such disparate companions, which I have seen all-too-often. You guys also gave out a lot of great world-building material - a civilization in decline, slouching toward feudalism, a great city on the sea which is the bastion of civilization and where the thief was no longer welcome, barbarians in the north who worship an animistic god, a dark swamp reputed to be home to basilisks, and of course the recently-annexed town of Goldlach where our adventure began...

Some stuff that I thought was cool about what you did:

- The opening fight with the orc in the abandoned manor was just great. It was exciting, full of interesting action, and the air was full of tension as you searched her and wondered what Terrible Things might be lurking inside the manor if that was the doorman.

- The thief felt empowered to use some of the fiction we'd established during character creation to "create" the secret stash of the Dancing Man, a squatter who had lived in the mansion before getting the hell out of there once The Digging began. Inside was a half-drained bottle of fine wine and a rusty tin locket with a timepiece on it, the latter of which was fully established by the thief. I wonder what role it will play later.

- The battle with the umber hulk. You talked to it. It talked back. Some weirdness ensued. Its grubs were involved. (You had to have been there.) When I ran another group through this same dungeon, it was a straight-up battle. It was neat to see some variety.

- Your paladin and his "invulnerability to the touch of incorporeal creatures" was really neat. Just so happened that a wraith was already at the location and it made for a very cool dynamic as it couldn't do anything to you except banter while it tried to kill the thief. Some really great teamwork ensued as you destroyed the crystal that spawned it just in time to save the thief. Very memorable.

I wasn't aware of any pushback during the world-building discussion. That could be due to the online interface. Would you say that this was an issue of approach on my part? How can I alter that to make it less, I dunno, is "intrusive" the word? In my mind, as you were giving me material, I was making connections to things you and the other player had established. A civilization in decline, a single bastion of civilization, and the heathens worshiping an "older" take on your own nature god... I was definitely feeling like that was all connected. That the barbarians would surely in some future game try to sac the great city, and that somehow only you, a paladin of a reformed god of beatific and harmonious nature, may be the only one to stop the tide of barbarism and blood that might snuff out the last light of civilization. I very much wanted to see where that was going.

As I look at my notes, I could easily see 10 levels of play out of what you've given me and I know there's more rattling around in your brain as borne out during your exploration of the manor, the umber hulk's lair, and the tunnel that has "broken" into a vault of great evil. I'd also love to see what's going on between the thief and the Duchess who recently annexed Goldlach. There's got to be a good story there, more than the thief is willing to admit to his paladin friend!

I look forward to running future games at your leisure and, having played in a game you ran last night, know that you "get" it (if my opinion can be considered as any sort of informed one), so I'm sure many, many great sessions lay ahead for your gaming circle. I'm happy to have helped out wherever I could and pleased that Dungeon World will be spreading to your community.

@ stras
We didn't have a bard at this game, but I think C&O has been deliberately changed from a previous edition to reflect that it's only useful on players as opposed to NPCs. I'd normally write that off and let it be used on NPCs (and do, as a house rule), but the deliberateness of the change makes me wonder if Adam and Sage didn't have some firm reason to do it.

@ noofy
Have you had an experience where the player isn't interested in a line of questioning and you did or didn't know it? Obviously, there's an easy solution which you've already discussed and that'd work for me. Just curious if you've seen anything similar in your games.

Re: AP The Mansion's Cavity
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2012, 10:33:37 AM »
Hey!  Great AP.  I wish I had more than a few spare minutes to address all the good stuff here.  I just wanted to pop in and say thanks for posting and to mention that charming and open works on NPCs, too!

When you speak frankly with someone, you can ask their player a question from the list below. If they answer it truthfully they then get to ask you a question from the list below.

The GM is the "player" in question when you're talking to non-player characters.

Re: AP The Mansion's Cavity
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2012, 11:02:16 AM »
Sweet, that answers that. Thanks, Adam!

Re: AP The Mansion's Cavity
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2012, 04:18:45 PM »

I wasn't aware of any pushback during the world-building discussion. That could be due to the online interface. Would you say that this was an issue of approach on my part? How can I alter that to make it less, I dunno, is "intrusive" the word?

It was just a strange confluence of events. You have a dry voice, I was kinda sensitive (new players, new systems), wasn't used to the reigns. Kind of like when the other player asked what "criminal eyes" meant. I took that to mean "Oh DM, won't you explain to me this arcane wonder?" The reply was "What do you want it to mean?". It was giving the reigns back; or shoving them back, because the DM can't be bothered depending on how you wanna look at it. Tonally the second interpretation had more draw to players of certain dispositions, i.e. yours truly.

Glad to see you enjoyed our game so much though; it seemed to be a charity game meant for educational purposes, but if you truly look forward to it, then you've opened the floodgates.

Nice to know about C&O though, that oughta make bards craftier. I've remembered some more difficulties I had. One was the minor matter of having ability increases come in increments of "2" when you have a stat at 17, and can go no higher than 18. Making the 17 a 16 and the 12 an 11 was an easy fix, but still odd. The very heavy weight for starting equipment when it came to non-fighter classes was another, but brought up elsewhere.

What got me was "Discern Realities", specifically the question "What is about to happen?". Doesn't that depend a lot on what they choose to do in the next few moments? Isn't that what we're playing to find out?