Author Topic: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores  (Read 7365 times)

Michael Pfaff

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Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« on: May 05, 2011, 02:59:22 PM »
I understand why the classic "3-18" stats are included; it's a nod to the original D&D design.

But, for more efficient design, I'm wondering if maybe they should just be reduced to "Assign these scores to the stats of your choice: +2, +2, +1, +1, =0, and -1."

Outside of the random dice rolling benefit, and the parallel to D&D, I'm seeing nothing but good coming from dropping the 3-18 "raw score".

If anything, you can get rid of all that text about "raw score" vs. "modifiers" which I've found can be confusing for new players who play D&D and are trying to grok scores vs. modifiers.

Am I a minority in this sense?

Mike


evilben

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 03:25:54 PM »
the only real reason i can see for keeping them is with increasing scores at level 3 6 and 9. currently you add 2 to a stat of your choice but this would not always up your modifier.
currently if you had a start starting at 8(-1) at level 3 you could add 2 to up it to 10(+0) and at 6 you could up it to 12(+1) but at 9 you could only get it to 14(+1) effectively doing nothing.
all the raw stats do it somewhat dictate which of your stats you can raise to a higher modifier and which ones are going to stay lower.

*im not saying this is better or worse than just having mods and upping a mod by 1 for those levels, just pointing out the differences between the two setups*

Michael Pfaff

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 03:27:49 PM »
Would it be easier to just say: +1 to stat, instead of +1 to two "raw" stats, which increases the modifier of one of those?

evilben

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 03:35:35 PM »
for the sake of details, the instructions on adding stats are add 2 to one stat, we have taken this to mean you cannot add 1 to two stats. and while it might be considered easier to one have modifiers and just increase a modifier by one it would not be a direct conversion as the raw stats are do not increase the modifier by 1 for every jump in two to the raw stat. (+1 is 12 to 15 for example. if you had a stat at 12 it would take two increases to get it to +2. i dont know if this is purposeful or not but it does exist in the current system.)

*again i am not saying one way is better than the other, just pointing out the differences between the two*

Michael Pfaff

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011, 03:37:15 PM »
for the sake of details, the instructions on adding stats are add 2 to one stat, we have taken this to mean you cannot add 1 to two stats. and while it might be considered easier to one have modifiers and just increase a modifier by one it would not be a direct conversion as the raw stats are do not increase the modifier by 1 for every jump in two to the raw stat. (+1 is 12 to 15 for example. if you had a stat at 12 it would take two increases to get it to +2. i dont know if this is purposeful or not but it does exist in the current system.)

*again i am not saying one way is better than the other, just pointing out the differences between the two*

Definitely. Good points. 

mease19

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2011, 05:40:05 PM »
I could see using the require tag to require certain stats be high enough to use an item, the added range would help.

Michael Pfaff

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2011, 05:42:12 PM »
I could see using the require tag to require certain stats be high enough to use an item, the added range would help.

Like, Giant's Axe - Str 15 required...?

mease19

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2011, 05:52:21 PM »
Exactly. 

saintandsinner

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2011, 06:23:16 PM »
I would agree.  If you need minimums to use certain items/equipment make it based off the bonus.  I don't see a compelling reason to keep them.

Ludanto

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2011, 06:58:43 PM »
Keep them for the same reason you keep "Dungeon World" and "Hit Points" and "Saving Throw": They're an homage to the source material, and they don't really hurt anything.

Michael Pfaff

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2011, 07:12:07 PM »
Keep them for the same reason you keep "Dungeon World" and "Hit Points" and "Saving Throw": They're an homage to the source material, and they don't really hurt anything.

You still keep Str, Dex, etc... You just drop the "raw" which has been discussed being dropped from D&D for ages.

Also, it can be confusing for new players. Differentiating "RAW" from modifier.

Str+2 is just as compelling and a throwback to D&D as Str 15 (+2), imo. And, like S&S said, if you want the requires tag, it could go: "Giant's Axe, requires Str+2".

I don't think it's a big deal either way. I'm used to D&D, so I can overlook it. But, I dig how AW goes with straight +s.

Also, there was a complaint recently about new players not knowing what Classes needed what Stats. Does RAW and modifier muddy that? And, should DW do stat spreads like AW does? I don't know. Something to think about.

mease19

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2011, 07:16:06 PM »
Despite, the possibility of using the finer grained ranges of scores, I'd be happy with just the pluses.  You could always have a note that says what raw scores translate to what pluses for those that want to roll up characters.

evilben

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2011, 07:18:15 PM »
im going to redirect you to my above posts.
the stats vs the bonuses matters a great deal with the ability to raise stats. having the stats and not just the bonus keeps the bonuses down and prevents anyone for getting too many high stats too quickly.
lets see if i can pull this out of my memory...
you start with 17 16 15 12 10 and 8, right? thats +2 +2 +1 +1 +0 -1
the major difference between having just bonuses and stats comes out here. to get that 12(+1) to a +2 bonus you need to spend two stat increases on it. to get that 10(+0) to a +2 you need to spend three.

basically giving you stats instead of just bonuses makes the player choose three "good stats" and three "bad stats" when they start that will define their character throughout the game.

as far as confusing new players. if you take some time to read the character sheets you should know what stat that class will need. all of the moves special to any class say on them what stat to roll.

saintandsinner

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2011, 07:20:14 PM »
Ben,
You could just as easily change to progression on stats and go with only the + and -. Personally I like that much better and would eliminate them in a game I ran.  I don't see a need for them other than nostalgia...

Michael Pfaff

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Re: Getting Rid of "Raw" Scores
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2011, 07:21:05 PM »
you start with 17 16 15 12 10 and 8, right? thats +2 +2 +1 +1 +0 -1
the major difference between having just bonuses and stats comes out here. to get that 12(+1) to a +2 bonus you need to spend two stat increases on it. to get that 10(+0) to a +2 you need to spend three.

This is handled in AW by giving certain +s to certain stats for each playbook. I don't think this is a super compelling reason to keep the RAW scores, but it's definitely something.

Ninja'd. :)