Author Topic: Advancing basic moves  (Read 12378 times)

Paul T.

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Advancing basic moves
« on: January 29, 2011, 03:08:47 PM »
Just a quick question:

Why is it possible to advance basic moves so quickly and easily (two advances for all seven)?

Is it because 12+ results are rare in play?

It seems to me that choosing *which* moves to advance makes really interesting statements about the character and where you want them to go. But in two advances, you've got all of them, no choices to make on that front.

I feel like I would still choose that advance even if I could only apply it to one or two moves (especially seduce/manipulate, right?).

For those of you who've played long and hard enough for this to come up, what's it look like in play?

Johnstone

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2011, 09:41:12 PM »
When I had a character advance that far, I knew exactly which three I wanted to advance. There was no question: seduce/manipulate (to protect people); open my brain (because I used it A LOT); and Read a Sitch ('cause I had Eye on the Door so I could ask "What's my best escape route?" AND "What's my second-best escape route?"). Getting the other 4 was just a bonus.

Would you rather it be done in three steps? Like, open 2, open 2 more, open the last 3? Or like 3, 2, 2? Sometimes I want to open special moves too.

Paul T.

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2011, 04:28:40 AM »
Basically, yeah, I'm just curious about this particular design decision.

Why just two advances, why not one to advance all the moves, or three, as you suggest, Johnstone?


Johnstone

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2011, 05:23:26 AM »
All in one advance is no good for obvious reasons: there's no opportunity to make a choice and thus make obvious what is important to you as a player. Example: I was playing the Battlebabe so I had cool+3, but I didn't open act under fire. I had other priorities and I stated them when I opened three other moves.

Why 2 moves instead of 3 though? No idea. Maybe Vincent has an answer, maybe he just did it that way. I think 3 moves to advance them all, either 3-2-2 or 2-2-3 would be dope.

Orion

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2011, 07:47:33 PM »
The second advance is really not worth it for most characters.  A third would almost certainly not be.  Unless you're rolling +2 or +3 on a move, you're effectively never going to roll a 12+ anyway.  So unless you've consistently opted for stat bonuses over new moves, are using stat substitution to be good at everything, or are a driver--you probably only have 3 moves you need to open anyway. 

Daniel Wood

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2011, 08:08:17 AM »

As I've said somewhere else, I would seriously consider simply removing the second advance next time I run an AW game. Like Johnstone said, the first advance is an opportunity to make a statement about your character's priorities -- or your priorities for your character. The second advance just seems to make those statements obsolete, as well as removing a possible delineation between highly-developped characters.

J. Walton

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2011, 05:54:39 PM »
Personally, my preference would be to allow you to advance 1 basic move for each advance you spend, and that you can do it twice, so each character can only open up 2 moves.  As it is, players are most likely to advance the moves that they have the biggest bonus in (+2 or +3) and that leads to more of a sense of diversity and difference among the characters.

That said, part of the point of advancing all the moves may be the unexpected results that occur when someone rolls a "natural 12" when doing something relatively insignificant.  In my experience, though, those instances can sometimes feel jarring and bizarre instead of really cool.  Like, when you're just trying to manipulate someone to give you their keys and all of a sudden they become your Ally, it doesn't really make sense sometimes.

John Harper

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2011, 08:37:41 PM »
I think we came to the same conclusion over here:
http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=1570.0

I was thinking 1 improvement for each advanced move, max: 3. But max: 2 might be good, too.

Jim Crocker

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 05:58:35 AM »
Just a quick question:

Why is it possible to advance basic moves so quickly and easily (two advances for all seven)?

Is it because 12+ results are rare in play?

It seems to me that choosing *which* moves to advance makes really interesting statements about the character and where you want them to go. But in two advances, you've got all of them, no choices to make on that front.

I feel like I would still choose that advance even if I could only apply it to one or two moves (especially seduce/manipulate, right?).

For those of you who've played long and hard enough for this to come up, what's it look like in play?

Paul, I have a gone multiple sessions sometimes without rolling particular moves. By advancing multiple moves, it seems to me that it makes those advancements worth taking, on par with the other good stuff, as well as driving the fiction towards interesting places.

It also means that the ability to uncover radical stuff abut the world is relatively open to everyone. If you could only advance a single move, it's likely ALWAYS and ONLY ever be the Brainer who uncovered the true nature of the Maelstrom, and ALWAYS AND ONLY ever the Skinner who got people to become her ally. With the ability to advance multiple moves, you increase the chance that at least one of them will come up without making the player feel like they need to just keep spamming one particular move if they ever hope to get actual utility out of that Advancement.

At least, that's my take on it, anyway. My Chopper isn't called to Act Under Fire all that often in our current game, that's just the way it goes. The fact that I can tack a 12+ result for it onto the Hard moves I really wanted is great, it creates possibilities that encourage me to not ALWAYS be pushing to Go Aggro so that I have a shot at a 12+ result before I die.

I do have to say I remain kind of baffled why people feel it's necessary to take that option away form others who may want it... of curse you're free not to take it yourself if you think it's badnotfun, but is it really so pernicious it needs to be slapped down?

-Jim C.

Daniel Wood

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2011, 01:49:19 AM »
[quote author=Jim Crocker link=topic=1061.msg9835#msg9835 date=1307167115
I do have to say I remain kind of baffled why people feel it's necessary to take that option away form others who may want it... of curse you're free not to take it yourself if you think it's badnotfun, but is it really so pernicious it needs to be slapped down?[/quote]

Er, the only 'others' here would be 'people playing in a game the person is running.' It's not like anyone is suggesting it be stricken from the records. Nor is anyone portraying this as some kind of crusade, except you in that last sentence.

That part aside, I think you're totally right about the danger of 'one advance = one open move'; it really ratchets up the already-present pressure on players to only open the moves they have high stats in, instead of maybe the moves whose opened versions are the most appealing to them, or most important to the character.

This is part of why I think it's only the second, 'open the remaining three' advance whose pernicious influence is going to destroy the fun of even the most experienced AW player, and must therefore be removed at all costs.

lumpley

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2011, 05:50:38 AM »
You guys are crazy in this thread too, but knock yourselves out here too. (Not Jim, Jim's the sensible one.)

The "it reduces diversification" complaint is especially crazy. These are the basic moves. Everybody's supposed to share them! It was almost a coin toss whether advancing a basic move advances it for everyone, not just for you. I can still see that rule for hacks.  It also wouldn't be absurd to just start the game with all the basic moves having their 12+ effects, that'd be fine for some hacks too.

Better than taking away the ability to advance your basic moves, would be adding the ability to advance your character moves. I wish that were practical.

J. Walton

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2011, 06:00:45 AM »
It's interesting to hear you say that, Vincent.  How is rolling 12+ pretty regularly not guaranteed to turn things crazy or silly after a while?  It just ends up breaking my suspension of disbelief.  Honestly, after I rolled a 12+ a few times, I'd rather retire the character than roll another 12+ result; that's how much I feel like it affects my experience of playing the game, when it happens a bunch.

lumpley

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2011, 03:25:46 PM »
Well if anything's breaking your suspension of disbelief, it shouldn't be happening in the first place. The 12+ results aren't silly by nature.

If you want to dig into what happened in your game, which advanced moves did what and when and to whom and stuff, we can, in another thread. My suspicion sight unseen is that somebody overplayed something, and it became a local standard, and now it's become part of your local understanding of how the advanced moves should work.

Daniel Wood

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2011, 10:05:29 PM »

Didn't we already have a thread about the 12+ manipulate/seduce result and suspension of disbelief? It's been awhile since I was in a game where characters were at that point, but I still feel like it's over the top.

lumpley

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Re: Advancing basic moves
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2011, 12:20:58 AM »
Start a thread if you want. Tell what happened in your game, ask what maybe could have happened instead.

I bet somebody overplayed it.